The Deification of Planets, Forces and Elements
This is a condensed study on how people within ancient religions went about deifying planets and merging them with symbols, idols and mythology although idolatry was not just limited to deification of planets in which all forms of deification were later adopted, indoctrinated and merged within Rome's own culture and currently now survives in various forms of modern day religion, occultism and mysticism throughout the world.
It is necessary and extremely important to show how religions and paganism are just so fudged up concerning their doctrines, mergers and relationship to each other along with so much added confusion today in trying to expose or pinpoint currently and presently in the now in relation to the past. Too many are focused on evil rather than good, on the darkness in the light and the darkness in the dark and have ended up in the dark not knowing the light within the light and the light within the dark and are fumbling with their storytelling.
The problem with astrology / astronomy, mythology and the forces of nature in relation to Scripture is idolatry - in several different forms among various other forms including idol worship which can also involve living humans being exalted and worshipped as gods such as the case explained in the book of Acts Chapter 14 unfortunately involving some of Yahushua's Disciples and how they had to correct these confused people in not going through with their plans of deifying them!
First, most astrologers / astronomers in Biblical times were from polytheistic cultures. The planets, forces of nature and even nature itself were considered gods and goddesses. The most obvious idolatrous practice is the worship of deities.
Second, the practice of sorcery, magic, divination, witchcraft, sacrificial offerings and possession coinciding with idolatrous practice.
Third, there is the idolatry of self (narcissism) or of someone else (deifying). Humans trying to be a God, putting another human in a position to be worshipped as a God or relating oneself or someone else to a deity or God as a direct personification or representation of a God to be worshipped.
Of a good note, a story is written in the heavens that is of pure form. This is how the account of the Wise Men knew of the Savior and where to find him in which, by the way, could have been as little as two or as many as 100 wise men (the word men, being plural) when the gifts were presented. These wise men studied the story written in the heavens along with scripture and various mythological accounts of the universe for the correct interpretation.
A pure form and explanation of astrology / astronomy of the western zodiac does exist called Biblical Astrology.
Babylon :
Mesopotamia / Babylon : Babylonian astronomy refers to the methods and theories that were developed in Mesopotamia (modern-day Iraq), particularly in Babylonia but inheriting earlier concepts developed in Sumerian culture all of which intertwined and merged over time becoming related and quite complexing due to its being the most ancient of all. Mesopotamia is considered to be the cradle of civilization and encompasses the land between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers with the rivers headwaters being in the Armenian Highlands. Associated with Mesopotamia are the Persians, the Medes, the Assyrians, the Sumerians, the Akkadians, Babylon and Turkey before their conquest first by the Greeks and then by the Romans. Mesopotamia / Babylon is the Mother of all.
Babylonian astronomy was the basis for much of the traditions that later developed in Greek and Hellenistic astronomy, in Sassanid Persian astronomy, in Syrian and Byzantine astronomy, in medieval Islamic astronomy, and in Western European astronomy. Unfortunately, this type of astronomy with its legends, symbols and mythology became deviant as well as idolatrous of which was not just limited to Babylon itself.
All this knowledge was transferred to the Greeks probably shortly after the conquest by Alexander the Great (331 BC). According to the late classical philosopher Simplicius (early 6th century), Alexander ordered the translation of the historical astronomical records under supervision of his chronicler Callisthenes of Olynthus, who sent it to his uncle Aristotle.
El - Ancient of Gods or Father of all the Gods of which the most important were Hadad, Yam and Mot. He had two wives, Athirat and Rahmay. El is also a generic word for god that could be used for any god including Baal, Moloch etc. Possibly relating to the planet Uranus.
Dagon- Possibly relating to the planet Saturn. Was the father of Baal and also known as the God of fertility. Ras Shamrah texts describe Dagon as coeval with El, the most ancient and senior of all the Semitic gods.
Nammu - Goddess of the Sea and is related to creating heaven and earth. Possibly correlating to Planet Earth as a Mother Goddess.
Yam - Meaning "Sea". Primordial God of Chaos and represents the power of the sea and is seen as ruling storms and disasters. The seven headed dragon Lotan (Leviathan of the old testament) is closely associated with him and the serpent is frequently used to describe him. He is also related to the Greek God Poseidon in which would relate to planet Neptune.
Hadad - Storm and Rain God and was often called Baal. Also known as king of heaven and first born of El.
Baal - Son of El or Dagon. Literal meaning "lord". Related to water due to his emergence being distinctive first to a Rain God and also defeating the Sea God Yam becoming king of the gods. Related to the Greek God Zeus and planet Jupiter.
Shamash- Sun God in relation to Marduk and offspring of Nanner.
Nanner - Moon God and is also known as Sin or Nanna.
Ea / Enki - The God of Water and appeared from the sea as half man and half fish according to Babylonian legend and in Sumerian legend was known as Enki, a creator deity who lived with and joined with the Earth Mother Goddess Ninhursaga. Possibly relating to the planet Neptune.
Marduk - Son of Ea. Consort of Shamash. Literal meaning "Bull Calf of the Sun". A sun God relating to the planet Mars and also associated with the planet Jupiter. He began as a God of Thunderstorms and became the omniscient king of the Pantheon, creator of mankind and of light and life. One of his sacred animals is a dragon with a forked tongue also known as a snake dragon. He became chief ruler of the universe as well as of the Gods and had a consort named Sarpanatu "the shining one", the planet Venus. He is also connected with water and is associated with fifty names. Very well could relate to Taurus and Aries.
Moloch / Molech - Related to the planet Saturn and Satan which incidentally has a hexagon at the north pole of the planet. Related to false prophecy, death, misfortune, fear and darkness. Moloch is associated with a bulls head but I have not found any record as of yet supporting the theory that Moloch actually has a bulls head and if any such statue or ancient glyph exists. Molech only appears 8 times in the book of the Old Testament and Moloch only appears 2 times in the New Testament of the bible. Saturn itself isn't necessarily a bad planet. All the planets have a light and dark side with tales to tell. It is that which mankind and the adversaries have corrupted concerning knowledge, deification and worship.
Shapash - Goddess of the Sun. Often called the torch of the Gods.
Kakka - Messenger God becoming related to the planet Mercury.
An- God of Heaven, the sky god related to the planet Jupiter which is known as the planet of kings.
Ki - Goddess of the Earth and wife of An. Related to the planet Earth.
Ishtar / Inanna - Mother Goddess and related to Greek Goddess Aphrodite. Involved with sexuality and sacred prostitution. Wife and sister of Tammuz. She was also related to war and fertility. This goddess incorporates harlotry, and is associated with the planets Venus (Goddess of love), Mars (God of War), and Earth (The Mother Goddess). Another symbol of hers was a lion.
Tammuz - God of fertility. Son of Enki, God of water.
Nergal / Mot - Lords of Death and the underworld. Related to the planets Pluto and Saturn.
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Egypt :
The following is a list of Egypts main deities, symbols and how Egyptian paganism was incorporated. Again the deities are quite complex, merge and combine due to Egypt's Upper and Lower aspects. They are rated second in antiquity.
The Ogdoad : The name of eight Egyptian deities who were especially worshipped in Hermopolis in Upper Egypt. They form the basis of the creation myth. The Ogdoad consist of four gods and four goddesses who together personify the essence of the primordial chaos before the creation of the world. They are Nun and Naunet (the primordial water), Huh and Hauhet (infinite space), Kuk and Kauket (darkness), and Amun and Amaunet (representing hidden powers).
From themselves they created the mound upon which lay the egg from which the sun god emerged. The gods of the Ogdoad are represented as frogs or with the head of a frog; the goddesses in the shape of a snake or as a woman with the head of a snake. Their cult centered on the town of Khemnu (Greek Hermopolis) in Middle Egypt. They also had a sanctuary at Medinet Habu in western Thebes.
Amun - A primordial Egyptian god, whose name means "the hidden one". As the driving force of the invisible breeze he was originally a god of wind and ruler of the air. During the 11th dynasty (2133 - 2000 BCE) he became the powerful sun-god of Thebes, where he was worshipped as Amun-Re. Later he was made the supreme god of the entire realm and king of the gods.
In the Ogdoad of Hermopolis he forms a pair with the mother-goddess Amaunet. From his union with the goddess Mut came forth the moon-god Chons. Amun's symbol is the ram. He is portrayed as a ram, as a man with a ram's head, or with a beard and a feathered crown. Temples dedicated to him are situated as Karnak and Deir-el-Bahari (near Luxor). He came to be identified with Zeus in Greece as Zeus Ammon. Other names given are Amon, Amen, and Ammon.
Amaunet - An Egyptian mother goddess, called the "Hidden One". She is the personification of the life-bringing northern wind. She belongs to the Ogdoad of Hermopolis. Within this group of gods her consort is the god Amun. She is referred to as 'the mother who is father' and in this capacity she needs no husband. Amaunet was regarded as a tutelary deity of the Egyptian pharaohs and had a prominent part in their accession ceremonies. She is portrayed as a snake or a snake-head on which the crown of Lower Egypt rests.
Mut - Wife of Amun. A primordial Egyptian goddess, patroness of the city of Thebes, where she was worshipped as a vulture. At Thebes she replaced Amaunet as the consort of Amun. With Amun and her adopted son, the moon-god Chons, she forms a powerful triad. Mut, whose name means "mother", was also a sky goddess and 'mother of the mothers', from whom everything originates. In an annual marital ceremony, Amun came from his temple in Karnak to Luxor to visit her. She was portrayed as a vulture, or as a woman with the head of a vulture, dressed in a bright red or blue dress. At Thebes, Mut was syncretized with the goddess Sakhmet.
Nu (Nun) and Naunet - Gods of the ocean and earth, parents of Atum. Nu was shown usually as male but also had aspects that could be represented as female or male. Naunet (also spelled Nunet) is the female aspect, which is the name Nu with a female gender ending.
Nu was the barrier separating the forces of chaos from the ordered cosmos in this world. The god Re was said to enter her mouth after setting in the evening and travel through her body during the night to be reborn from her vulva each morning. She also swallows the stars and have them reborn later. In the death cult she plays a part in the resurrection of the dead; she is portrayed on the inside of the lids of the sarcophagi. The pharaoh was said to enter her body after death, from which he would later be resurrected.
The male aspect, Nun, is written with a male gender ending. As with the primordial concepts of the Ogdoad, Nu's male aspect was depicted as a frog, or a frog-headed man. In Ancient Egyptian art, Nun also appears as a bearded man, with blue-green skin, representing water. Naunet is represented as a snake or snake-headed woman.
Atum - Seen as the first being, god and originator of the Ennead. Portrayed as both a creator and father to the king. Often interpreted as being "the complete one", finisher of the world, which he returns to watery chaos at the end of the creative cycle. He is usually depicted as a man but is also shown as a serpent, the form he returns to at the end of the creative cycle and also occasionally as a mongoose, lion, bull, lizard or ape. He is known as the grandfather of the deities and all things formed made from his flesh. A Sun God who is closely associated with Re, Ra, and Horus.
Iusaaset - Atums wife closely resembling Isis. Known as mother and grandmother of the gods.
Re - The Supreme God of ancient Egypt who takes the form of the sun and is closely connected with the king. His dead form is represented as a ram-headed man in a shrine. Also represented as a man with the head of a hawk with a solar disk on top.
Ra - Sun God. Called creator and father of all things having several manifestations, most notably the hawk and lion and later merged with the God Horus. Other forms included a man with the head of a hawk with a solar disk on top, a man with the head of a beetle, a man with the head of a ram, phoenix, heron, bull, serpent and cat. He was believed to have ruled in all parts of the created world such as the sky, earth and the underworld and created humans with his tears and sweat.
Inpu - Son of Ra later considered to be brother of Horus. Messenger of the Gods and Protector / God of the dead. Given Greek name Anubus and associated with Greek God Hermes. Known symbol was to have the head of a Jackyl.
Anput - Wife of Inpu. Has several titles such as "lady of light and dark, queen of the starry heavens, dark mother, lady of heaven, lady of truth, lady of magic and lady of heaven".
Shu - Son of Atum and God of the Air. His Grandchildren are Osiris, Isis, Set and Nephthys which are siblings of Geb and Nut.
Tefnut - Wife of Shu and Daughter of Atum. Goddess of moisture, moist air, dew and rain. Also worshipped as a goddess of fire. Her symbol is a lioness.
Sekhmet - Sibling of Tefnut known as Goddess of Warfare and also became known as Scarlet Lady and Lady of Flame. Her symbols were the sun disk and a lioness. She is also related to the Cat Goddess Bastet.
Geb - Son of Shu and God of the Earth. Pharohs claimed descent from him. Described as "Father of Snakes". Associated with the Greek God Cronos.
Nut - Geb's wife. The ancient Egyptian sky-goddess, one of the Ennead of Heliopolos. She is the personification of the sky and of the heavens, the daughter of Shu and Tefnut.
Set - Former Sun God becoming God of Evil, Storms, Chaos, and the desert. Also known as Setan and the Greeks named him Seth.
Osiris - Egyptian Saviour. Chief deity of death with green colored skin and only God to rival solar cult Re and replaced Inpu. He wore a tiara crown with two large ostrich feathers on either side. Other Egyptian deities were also associated with the ostrich feather.
Isis - Mother Goddess of Egypt, wife and sister of Osiris, mother of Horus and associated with Greek Goddess Aphrodite. Her symbols are cow horns with a sun disk.
Horus - Sky God represented with the head of a falcon, whose eyes were the sun and the moon. His right eye being that of the sun and his left eye of the moon. His symbols are the same as Ra's. Also mentioned as a God of War.
Mentu - God of War and represented with the head of a falcon.
Neith - Goddess of War and associated with Isis and also as mother of Re / Ra.
Qetesh - Goddess of Love and Beauty. A Sumerian Goddess adopted into Egyptian mythology that also correlates to Ishtar.
Thoth - God of the Moon. Protected the pregnant Isis and healed the eye of Horus.
Sphinx - Was an image of the Sun God with the head of a man and body of a lion. There are also those containing the head of a ram or the head of a woman with breasts and a body of a lion. This being very well may represent or is related to cherubs the ones on the ark of the covenant as spoken of in the bible. It is also interesting to note that the sphinx is related to the chimera and the griffin. The oldest known sphinx was found near Gobekli Tepe at another site, Nevali Cori, or possibly 120 miles to the east at Kortik Tepe, Turkey and was dated to 9,500 B.C.
Wadjet - Meaning the green one. A patron goddess associated with land and depicted as a snake-headed woman or snake and sometimes as a dual headed snake, usually of an egyptian cobra. An interpretation of the Milky Way was that it was the primal snake, Wadjet, the protector of Egypt. Wadjet was closely associated in the Egyptian pantheon with Bast, the fierce goddess depicted as a lioness warrior and protector, as the sun goddess whose eye later became the eye of Horus, the eye of Ra, and as the Lady of Flame. She also became associated with Isis and many other deities. The going forth of Wadjet was celebrated on December 25th with chants and songs. The symbol is also known as the all seeing eye and the eye of providence.
Ankh - A cross with a loop shape at the top. An egyptian symbol for life.
Obelisk - originally erected as a cult symbol to the Sun God said to resemble a petrified ray of the sun disk. They were placed in pairs at the entrance of temples, symbolized the Sun Gods Ra and Atum and it was also thought that the gods resided within the structure. It is also in reference to and symbolic of a phallus.
Pharaoh- Title used for Ancient Egyptian rulers. It has a meaning as king but also as tyrant. Pharaoh's were regarded as Gods and assumed dual duties as King and God.
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Note : The sphinx's with a Rams head are more than likely related to the Egyptian Ram God Banebdjedet of Mendes.
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In the relief shown below, within the first column at top left is an artifact called the right eye of Horus representing the sun and directly to the right is an artifact known as the left blue eye of Horus representing the moon.
Located within the first column at bottom left is an artifact of Wadjet with all her symbols and directly to the right are two hieroglyphic images of Wadjet; one of her as the uraeus sun disk with her head through an ankh (I think she swallowed the sun myself) and another where she is in the talons of a Horus hawk wearing the double crown of united Egypt, representing a pharaoh king who came out of Egypt and will defeat her with the brightness of his arrival.
Located at the far right are catholic rosaries. Seems that there is a bunch of light eating reptilian snakes running around within the catholic church along with her harlot daughters looking to feed upon the unsuspecting and crucify them. Beware the snake eating Hawks. Check this video out Locust Army Rising.
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The ostrich feathers of Osiris : Looks like someone is quite confused along with those who follow. False christianity. Why don't they do as Yahusua the Christ has stated, "sell all you have and give to the poor then you will enter into the kingdom of Heaven."
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Greece and Rome's Pagan Relations :
The following will be the list of Gods in Greece without pictures. Here is the culture that holds the key of Babylon and where The Evil Lord Satan can be identified according to Revelation 2 : 12 - 13 concerning Pergamos. It is the key that identifies and ties all the deities together with their associated planets and planes of ruler-ship and makes them known. One can do a further study on Greek Mythology, the purpose here is to find and expose The Evil Lord and what planets are related so that one can then go back and first look at Babylon and then Egypt for the ancient identifications. The Roman counter-parts will be listed with the Greek Gods here. Killing two birds with one stone so to speak.
The Primordial Gods :
Uranus - God of the Heavens, the Sky God and Father of the Titans. In Greek mythology, Uranus, or Father Sky, is personified as the son and husband of Gaia, Mother Earth (Hesiod, Theogony). Counterpart to Roman God Caelus. Counterparts to Planets Uranus and Earth. Most Greeks considered Uranus to be primordial (protogenos), and gave him no parentage, but rather being conceived from Chaos, the primal form of the universe. He is referred to heaven and also as first ruler of the universe.
He was the father of Gaea's children, the Titans, the Cyclopes, and the Hundred-handed Ones (the Hecatoncheires). Fearing that his children would rebel against him, he imprisoned them, but Kronos (Cronus), a Titan, with the help of Gaea (Gaia), castrated him, thereby taking away his power.
From the blood of Uranus that fell on Earth sprang the three Furies (the Erinyes), the goddesses of revenge. According to Hesiod, Aphrodite was born of Uranus' discarded flesh and the foaming sea.
Gaia - Primordial Goddess of the Earth and Mother of the Titans. Counterpart to planet Earth.
Pontos - God of the Sea. Is also counterpart to Greek God Poseidon and Roman God Neptune. Both are counterparts to the planets Neptune and Earth.
The Titans :
Cronus - The leader of the Titans, who overthrew his father Ouranos (Latin for Uranus) only to be overthrown in turn by his son, Zeus. Not to be confused with the primordial god Chronos, the keeper of time. His Roman counterpart is Saturn, God of Agriculture and Vegetation. Saturn is the highest planet in the hierarchy of planets (of those known to the ancients) and thus the closest to the Gods and thus associated with immortality and longevity. Saturn's energy is that of the ruler, one in charge. Saturn energy is that of law and order, rules, boundaries, and all things inevitable, death, taxes, fate, evolution and karma. One of its planetary stones is an onyx.
Saturn is related to the Mesopotamian god Moloch and has a hexagram at the north pole (666) and an eye at its south pole (the all seeing eye that is so much talked about); Saturn could very well be telling the tale on what is considered to be "The Beast" and its judgment written about in the book of revelation.
Rhea - Titan daughter of Uranus, the sky, and Gaia, the earth, in Greek mythology. She was known as "the mother of gods." In earlier traditions, she was strongly associated with Gaia and Cybele and is one of the named moons of Saturn. The Romans identified Rhea with the Goddess Ops.
Cronus sired six children by Rhea: Hestia, Hades, Demeter, Poseidon, Hera and Zeus in that order, but swallowed them all as soon as they were born, since he had learned from Gaia and Uranus that he was destined to be overcome by his own child as he had overthrown his own father. When Zeus was about to be born, however, Rhea sought Uranus and Gaia to devise a plan to save him, so that Cronus would get his retribution for his acts against Uranus and his own children. Rhea gave birth to Zeus in Crete, handing Cronus a stone wrapped in swaddling clothes, which he promptly swallowed.
The Throne and location of Satan and who he is :
Revelation 2 : 12 - 13 And to the Angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; I know thy works and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you where Satan dwelleth.
Watch this video of pertinent historical information published by Lyn Leahz concerning Satan's throne five years after publication of this website.
More information concerning Satan's Throne on Mount Olympus :
In ancient Greece, it was regarded as the abode of the gods and the site of the throne of Zeus. The Olympic Games were a celebration held every four years on the plain of Olympus in honor of Zeus. They included athletic games and contests of choral poetry and dance. Our modern Olympic Games are modeled after them. Medals are given for placement. First is gold, second is silver and third is bronze. (Keep bronze in mind, it is a key metal and the relevance will be explained in study Part d). Gold is for Babylon, Silver is for the Medes / Persians and Bronze is for Greece.
Pergamos and the church at Pergamos where Satan's seat is and where Satan dwelleth :
A city in the district of Mysia in western Asia Minor located 15 miles (24 km) inland from the Aegean near the seaward end of the Caicus Valley. Pergamos was settled from early times and served as the capital of the Roman province of Asia from 133 B.C. to the 2nd century A.D. However, under the Romans, Pergamos retained only official and religious preeminence, as Ephesus became the commercial center.
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The picture at the right is the foundation of the Pergamon Alter of Zeus, within the Acropolis of the Ancient Greek city Pergamon, now within what is currently known as modern day Turkey, in Mysia which became the capital of the kingdom of Pergamon during the Hellenistic Period. |
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The Olympians :
Zeus - The king of the gods, the ruler of Mount Olympus and the god of the sky, weather, thunder, law, order and fate. He is the youngest son of Cronos and Rhea whom he overthrew and is also brother-husband to Hera. His symbols are the thunderbolt, royal scepter, eagle, bull and oak.
Zeus forced Cronus to disgorge his siblings in the reverse order in which they had been swallowed, the oldest becoming the last and youngest becoming the first. The stone (which was something used to fool Cronus and wasn't a sibling) was set down at Pytho under the glens of Parnassus to be a sign to mortal men, then the rest. Similarly, in later myths, Zeus would swallow Metis to prevent the birth of her child, Athena (Goddess of Wisdom), but she was born unharmed, out of a wound made in Zeus' head by one of the other gods. Athena's symbols are the owl, olive branch and helmet.
Ares, son of Zeus and Hera became the God of War and related to the planet Mars. His symbols are the spear, dog, and vulture.
Zeus is counterpart to the Roman God Jupiter, the supreme God of the Romans. Both are counterparts to the planet Jupiter (known as the king plant or planet of kings). We now have the full circle ending with Tarquinius Superbus who first instilled Jupiter Worship (worship of kings) within Rome! A king known as Jupiter to the Romans and Zeus to the Greeks; along with the other "Kingly" names related to the planet Jupiter or ultimately Saturn in other cultures could very well be one of the many names of Satan (adversary in english since satan is an untranslated hebrew word, satanas in greek). Note : Zeus and Jupiter are also considered to be Earth Father Gods.
Incidentally, the book of Enoch has some very interesting information within Chapter 68 where the name of Satan (one of the adversaries); "the Serpent who beguiled (seduced) Eve"; is eluded to or being as the name Gadrel and more than likely is in reference to the serpent of Genesis on through to Revelation.
Of another note : Jupiter, the planet of kings, may be related to the star of Bethlehem. To watch a really good video about the planets Jupiter and Venus merger once about every 2000 years with the most recent in June of 2015 visit Star of Bethlehem or you can read the article at space.com.
Here are the rest of the main planetary Greek Gods of Olympus (heads of the family tree) with the Roman and planetary counterparts :
Hera - Greek Mother Goddess, Queen of Heaven and wife to Zeus. Her Roman counterpart is Juno. Both have a peacock as a sacred bird. Hera's other sacred symbols are a cow, diadem, golden apple and a scorpion. Both are often associated with Greek Goddess Gaia and Roman Goddess Cybele as Earth Mother Goddesses.
Hephaestus - Greek God of Fire and husband of Aphrodite. His Roman counterpart is Vulcan.
Hermes - Greek Messenger and his Roman counterpart is Mercury. Both counterpart to the planet Mercury and messenger of Jupiter.
Ares - Greek God of War and his Roman counterpart is Mars. Both counterpart to the planet Mars.
Aphrodite - Greek Adulterous Goddess and her Roman counterpart is Venus, the goddess of love. Both have counterparts to planet Venus.
Helios - Greek God of the Sun and his Roman counter part is Sol. Both correlated to the Sun. Zeus' son Apollo later took on this role as a God.
Selene - Greek Goddess of the Moon. Her Roman counterpart is Luna.
Hades- Greek God of the Underworld. His Roman counterpart is Dis / Orcus also known as Pluto. Counterpart to Planet Pluto. Yes, I still consider Pluto a planet and so did the ancients.